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Carl Zeiss TOUIT series for Mirroless (Sony, Fuji) has bee already anounced...

By Wojciech Zielinski

Greetings,
it happend sooner than it was predicted by sites of rumors (they wrote new line of lens would be announced on 7th of May). We have already lens cross-section and brochures. But there is lack of MTF curves. Are they so bad that it is better to not publish them? I don't think it is an inattention or shortcoming. What do You think?

http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/?p=3518

http://lenses.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/carl-zeiss-camera-lenses/camera_lenses/touit/touit2812.html

best regards, WZ.

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Replies

Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 06-16-13 10:07 PM

Greetings,
there is new interesting article about internal design of Touit 1.8/32:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/06/15/Really-getting-in-Touit-We-tear-down-Zeiss-new-32mm-lens-to-get-a-closer

I got this video from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss (z-enthusiast), thanks for that about general designing process of touit lesnes:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarlZeissLenses?feature=em-subs_digest

Best regards, WZ.
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-25-13 12:51 PM

Yes Rainer, It is very good news :)

I have already pre-ordered two Lunars because I believe it's price could rise significally when people find out how innovative is Hasselblad camera :)

Best regards, WZ.
Reply from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss on 05-25-13 6:16 AM

Super, the new Carl Zeiss TOUIT lenses fit on the special designed 5000 € HASSELBLAD LUNAR cameras too!
Reply from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss on 05-24-13 12:40 AM

The new Touit glasses are Made in Japan! From whom? I don't think from COSINA! My guess is more the SIGMA Company, who has once produced N zoom lenses for Zeiss for the Contax N (digital)! O.K. under strong quality controls, excellent quality lenses can be these days manufacturer worldwide everywhere. A good number of present Nikon glasses are also Made in Thailand! The industrial manhour costs at Japan are also pretty high at these days too!
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-15-13 9:54 PM

Greetings,
in last 12h there were published the MTFs to two members of Touit Family:

http://lenses.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_touit/touit_2812-.pdf

http://lenses.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/datasheets_touit/touit_1832-.pdf

Does they look too much optimistic ? They remind me those by Sony but those are measured and unaltered for sure :)

Best regards, WZ.
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-8-13 3:49 PM

Greetings,
Zeiss Camera Blog has published another article about making of new Touit lens' series:

http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/?p=3542

we got (beside an explanation of achromatic doublet's role at rear side of Planar 1.8/32mm Toluit) two pair of high resoultion photo samples:

[url=http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Touit_2.8_12_Brandstetter_London_01.jpg][img]http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Touit_2.8_12_Brandstetter_London_01-622x348.jpg[/img][/url]
(shot with Distagon 2.8/12mm at f/13 with Sony NEX-5 at ISO200)

[url=http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lauric-Weber_Barah.jpg][img]http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Lauric-Weber_Barah-622x414.jpg[/img][/url]
(shot with Distagon 2.8/12mm at f/9 with Fuji X-Pro1 at ISO200)

[url=http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Michael-Pollmann_Japan_3.jpg][img]http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Michael-Pollmann_Japan_3-622x414.jpg[/img][/url]
(shot with Planar 1.8/32mm at f/2 with Sony Nex-7 at ISO100)

[url=http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Touit_1.8_32_Hoenlinger_Hongkong_04.jpg][img]http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Touit_1.8_32_Hoenlinger_Hongkong_04-622x414.jpg[/img][/url]
(shot with Planar 1.8/32mm at f/1.8 with Fuji X-Pro1 at ISO640)

There is more unofficial photos with Fuji X-Pro1 and Touit series:
http://dunkelkammer.co/blog/entry/hands-on-x-mount-fuji-vs-carl-zeiss-touit

I like more Fuji official shot but I believe that they are better composed one. Anyway I am happy to see official high resolution photos (and I hope You too).

Best regards, WZ.
PS. Great news, Zeiss has admitted that:
"We’re currently working on the MTF curves and will soon integrate them into the data sheets.

Best regards
Carl Zeiss Lenses Team"
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-4-13 2:16 PM

Greetings Rainer :)
I think I understand Your situaltion when You own many wonderful full frame, ultra-wide lenses and full frame DSLR. But for me, who feel I may try a new journey with something wider than 84 deg.C (diagonal), I wish to get some information which lens to buy to my small APS-C mirrorless camera. Recently there were only Voigtlander Heliar 5.6/12, which has very poor performance at every aperture till diffraction limit. Now Sony users may use Sony generic lens (SEL-1018) and Carl Zeiss Distagon 2.8/12 Toluit.
I would be better to know a little more about Touit lenses before I preorder one of them. I feel that Carl Zeiss should try to convince their customers to buy their product. I don't want to choice blindly only with my emotions, I like to have a assurance that I made a good decision to buy one lens, not the another one. I like buy product with good documentation, not only with statement "You needn't to know much and You would be pleased with results, dear Customer".
Those who are happy with that statment, they would probably choice another camera system :)
Best regards, WZ.
Reply from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss on 05-3-13 11:57 PM

Hi Woijciech, NO I cannot prove that the SONY MTF Charts are facts! But I know, that even lens manufacturer of an higher league using this theoretical "beautifications"!

But anyway, I don't care much about these theoretical "races"! I am making my images within my capacities, and planning not for new gear.
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-3-13 10:56 PM

Hi Rainer,
You are probably right, with very high rate of certitude. But I, and probably You, cannot show any strong evidences that Sony MTF charts are not pure measured ones.

First I would like to mention an article of Marco Cavina (italian only),
when Mr Cavina publish MTF theoretical and measured for first version of Hologon 8/15:
[url]http://www.marcocavina.com/articoli_fotografici/zeiss_contarex_mtf/01.gif[/url]

I could learn with it that theoretical calculation have usually different characteristic, which could be approximated with polynomial equitation of different order with very different plot of first derivative. Hologon 8/16 MTF plot are the same, both sides, which could suggest that those are the same measured version (which You may find also here: http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/g/Hologon8_16mm_e.pdf ).

When You compare for example:

[url]http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/za/sal85f14z.png[/url]
http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/ze/planar_14_85_en.pdf
http://lenses.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/downloadcenter/contax_yashica/planar1-2_85mm_e.pdf
(Contax version is half stop faster lens, but it has also extended rear group of elements like ZA version).

You may find that general trend at equivalent spatial frequencies in MTF, especially wide open are similar for Planar ZA and Planar ZE. Those for ZA version is only a little higher, which may suggest some systematic error (or intentional enhancing a chart).

Similar observation happens with Sonnar 135:
[url]http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/za/sal135f18z.png[/url]
http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/z/aposonnar_2_135.pdf

Distagon 2/24 has distinctly inferior MTF characteristic, with close similarities in lens design.
[url]http://www.sony.jp/products/picture/y_SAL24F20Z_MTF.jpg[/url]
http://www.zeissimages.com/mtf/z/distagon_2_25.pdf

Distagon 2/24 ZA was first designed so engineers couldn't be suggested by MTF of undeveloped yet Distagon 2/25. To conclude, I don't want to defend MTF generation's procedure for Sony lens. I also feel that they are too much ideal.

But some relative information about what happens at image edge to performance in center image, You may find out. Those observation for eg. discontinued already SEL-16F28 was confirmed by independent reviewers like http://www.photozone.de/

I hope to see any MTF for Touit from Carl Zeiss, they should have more confidence in those lens, which have already been signed by their brand name. Maybe they should publish both version, theoretically computed and measured version of each lens. I believe that many customers (and fanciers) of Carl Zeiss would understand it.

Best regards, WZ.
PS. Thanks Rainer for providing Your contribution especially to this topic (about mirrorless lenses). I really appreciate it.

Reply from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss on 05-3-13 1:27 PM

Hi Woijciech, these Sony MTF measurements are looking to me very optimistic and hard to believe. There are many lens manufacturers, they like to show the theoretical MTF charts, and not the real world.
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-3-13 1:12 PM

Rainer,
it is not true that "There are no MTF measurents available for the original SONY NEX, and FUJI X lenses either!" :) You need only to know where to search:

Carl Zeiss Sonnar 1.8/24 ZA E-mount lens has MTF:

http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL24F18Z/feature_1.html

Other Sony E-mount primes:

http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL35F18/feature_1.html
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL50F18/feature_1.html
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL20F28/feature_1.html
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL30M35/feature_1.html

And zooms:
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL1018/feature_1.html
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SELP1650/feature_1.html#L1_30
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL18200LE/feature_1.html
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL1855/feature_1.html#L1_40
http://www.sony.jp/ichigan/products/SEL55210/feature_1.html

I am not really sure about X-mount lenses by Fuji but I could swear that I saw somewhere MTF for 1.4/35 and it doesn't make good impression on me. Fuji's world is not my dream - cause I cannot mount my ZA lens and using Hologon 8/16 would be more difficult.

I may agree that Sony MTF differs from those publish by Carl Zeiss. Sony measures at 10/30 cycles/mm and Zeiss at 10/20/40 cycles/mm. But it is more like a detail for me, it doesn't means that Sony doesn't publish MTF for their lesnes, eg. E-mount lesnes. I believe that they are better made that those published by eg. Nippon Kōgaku Kōgyō Kabushikigaisha (Japan Optical Industries Co., Ltd, member of Mitsubishi Group).

I deeply believe in optics based on facts (like MTF charts), not (only) on astonish marketing action.

Best regards, WZ.
Reply from Wolf Rainer Schmalfuss on 05-3-13 6:08 AM

There are no MTF charts published from Zeiss, maybe for an good reason. There are no MTF measurents available for the original SONY NEX, and FUJI X lenses either!
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 05-1-13 2:33 PM

Greetings,
new Zeiss AG design (finishing) of lenses reminds me last version of PSix lenses from Jena:

[img]http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1155/med_U1155I1367407187.SEQ.0.jpg[/img]

There is at least one difference, Biometar has DoF scale inprinted aside rubber rings. Do You have any other association ? I always wanted to have rubber Exakta 66 version of Biometar 80 but I read that this rubber were aging very quickly. New Touit is made 'for ages' as Zeiss assures.
Lens internal construction reminds for me cross-section of Distagon 4/18 ZM. It could be not an coincidence if both lenses has very similar angle of view (diagonal about 98-99 deg. ).

[img]http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1155/med_U1155I1367443596.SEQ.0.jpg[/img]

More elements and thicker glass (in rear section, which has been rebuild in compare to Distagon 4/18 but still remains similar) sometimes brings less light fallout, so Distagon 2.8/12mm is brighter than Distagon 4/18mm. I am curious is MTF is similar too..of course Touit is APS-C only negative size lens.

Best regards, WZ.
PS. Are You already in love with Touit ("Parrot") lenses ?
Reply from Wojciech Zielinski on 04-30-13 3:32 PM

Greetings,
which design of Distagon 12mm do You like better?

[img]http://www.zeissimages.com/gallery/1155/U1155I1367358445.SEQ.0.jpg[/img] [img]http://blogs.zeiss.com/photo/de/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2.8_12_X_ZEISS_if_Award1.jpg[/img]

I don't know but I feel more convinced about results with Ultraprime than Touit line. Ultraprime has only a little larger negative size (24.9mmX18.7mm VS 23.46mmX15.64 mm) and doesn't have filter thread. I couldn't find MTF charts for both Distagons, one of Ultraprime lines and 2nd one from Touit line. I hope to see some reviews. It would be great to get MTF charts directly from Carl Zeiss AG.

Best regards, WZ.

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